Farming Skill and Models 02/12/2003

[Paul Hutson]

Well, as you will know by now the Farming skill and previews of several models by Kevin have been uploaded to the main website.

Do you have any thoughts, questions or comments about any of the updates? The development team would love to hear them!

[Naugil]

I just put this here then...


Quote:
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Growing time (with fields) means the time between sowing and the time the field is ready to be harvested, (ranging from 1 to 4 RL weeks).

The model for the sown field will appear visible 24 RL hours after the sowing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


As I understand this growth and harvesting of crops wont be tied to the AD yearcycle (one AD year = four RL months?), so there wont be any 'harvest month' in July or August in a real sence, correct? If so, for me it's a little annoying that there's no real feeling of seasons in AD from a farming point of view. But not as annoying as if I would have to wait four freaking RL months for my crops!

Personally I'd like a pace of one Game year = three RL weeks, and sowing/harvesting tied to the seasons.

But it's no big problem for me. It's like that 'three-lives-then-perma-death' thing, not ultrarealistic but close enough to do the trick.

[Himfalath]

I love the dog. Any chance we can see it animated? :)

[VenomByte]

I think the timing of the cycles is just about right. Long enough that you have to wait for your crops, and each harvest has a lot of time invested in it, but short enough that you're not waiting forever, and farmers will actually be able to make some money!

I'd assume that in Adellion time of year will affect the weather, which in turn is going to affect your harvests anyway. If that's the case there will be better times of year to sow crops, so we'll still get a bit of a feel for seasonal-dependant farming.

It was mentioned that different species will require different types of terrain in order to prosper. Does it follow that they'll also be affected differently by the weather? Some preferring moderate rain, some dry spells, etc?

Further to this, will the farming skill affect the information a player recieves when examining a seed/nut? There's potentially a lot to know about each type of crop, from things like it's name to it's likely growing time, ideal terrain, etc.

[VenomByte]

I love the dog. Any chance we can see it animated? :)

It's tail is wagging. What more do you want? :)

[Aethiryn]

Aryiure is somewhere above the equator, not too far north of it though, so seasons won't be as prevalent as they may be in some places. Generally you'd likely be able to grow things all year around.

[Naugil]

Thanks for the answers, guys.

Different species require different types of terrain to grow and prosper.

Does it mean different results in crop volume only? It would be so cool if there was a quality value also, think of the bragging factor...ever since I played that old 'capitalism' game I always thought that it would be a nice feature in a MMORPG.

[Towe]

Do you have any thoughts, questions or comments about any of the updates? The development team would love to hear them!

Well, do we have a problem with landmass?
I'd make the infertile time much longer (8 weeks?), so that farmers will move their fields in rotation like they did (still do?). Also it would be nice to lower this time with bullshit for example...

[Canis]

I just put this here then...

Personally I'd like a pace of one Game year = three RL weeks, and sowing/harvesting tied to the seasons.



Then a day would only be 1,4 hours of real life. Durring winter there would only be light for about half an hour of real time. That would be a bit annoying seeing the sun race across the screen like that.

Still I thing the 1 to 3 ratio of time in adellion is a bit too extreme. That means a day will last 8 hours of RL time. For casual players that could be very annoying as they would have to play durring the night some times and not see daylight in a session.

Cutting it to 3 months to a year, 6 hours on a day would do a lot.

[Teila]

Then a day would only be 1,4 hours of real life. Durring winter there would only be light for about half an hour of real time. That would be a bit annoying seeing the sun race across the screen like that.

Still I thing the 1 to 3 ratio of time in adellion is a bit too extreme. That means a day will last 8 hours of RL time. For casual players that could be very annoying as they would have to play durring the night some times and not see daylight in a session.

Cutting it to 3 months to a year, 6 hours on a day would do a lot.


The time ratio is created for roleplaying. Nothing is more annoying than having a hour long conversation and watching the sun rise and fall numerous times. However, night and day will not be the same length...night will be shorter...so that players on for a short time will not be playing in the dark. I also believe (can't remember if this has changed) that the hours will be staggered. So if you always play at 8 pm est, it won't always be dark at that time...or always light.

As for person who mentioned changing the year to 3 weeks real life time...YIKES! That means 17 years will pass in one years time! This is not good at all for roleplay. I know I would like to play my characters for some time before they become too old to do anything,

Remember...Adellion is being created for roleplayers. Finally...a game that meets the needs of roleplayers rather than forcing us to adjust to the non-roleplaying features of other games. :)

[Eilsel]

What if, after you have sown a field with a certain crop, you change your mind and want to plant something different? Will you be able to clear the field during the "growing" period or are you stuck with the first crop until harvest time?

Just thought that if a farmer planted something and then the tribe decided they needed a certain crop or resource more, would they have to plant another field and continue to let the first one grow?

I suppose if there is enough land to plant, it wouldn't be too much of a problem. But if land becomes scarce, it would be beneficial to be able to destroy a crop for a more useful one then to have to wait...

Does my question make sense?

I need more coffee :D

Eilsel

[Naugil]

Ok, I'm not gonna start a crusade for a change of the time-scale as this, I guess, already is written in stone for Adellion, plus it's of topic on this thread. I just say this about it and then I let it go.

Listen very carefully, I will say this only once...on this thread ;)

My ideal time-scale is:
1 G day = 2.4 RL hours (or 10 G days = 1 RL day)
1 G year = 210 G days (or 1 G year = 3 RL weeks)

The reason for this high ratio is to synchronize the game calender with actual progress and events in the game. examples: Travel, if a journey takes a few RL hours then it would feel longer if also a couple of days passed in the game. History, if after 1 RL year 17 years passed in the game then all that citybuilding, great wars and other cool but time consuming stuff happens in a more realistic timeframe. I simply want to roleplay an epic grandfather-father-son tale that spans over generations.

[Teila]

My ideal time-scale is:
1 G day = 2.4 RL hours (or 10 G days = 1 RL day)
1 G year = 210 G days (or 1 G year = 3 RL weeks)


As I stated previously, this would not work in a roleplay setting. Time does not really affect distances, only the perception of distances. We have other ways of making travel take a long time and seem more realistic.

I can't even imagine keeping a storyline going if 1 real life year equals 17 game years. :) One thing all of us on the team wanted was realistic time. One of the best roleplay muxes online today has a very realistic time frame and it makes the roleplay so much more intense and meaningful. If aging is ever added to Adellion, we want players to be able to actually play their characters within a decent time scale.

But again, I understand your reasoning. You never know what might happen during the testing phase.

Teila
Leader of the Dalmites
HB Lore Conceptualist

[Kurshuk]

Hmm. So after a field is done growing one has 2000 'units' of crops to collect, each one taking 3 seconds. So that's 6000 seconds if it's completely streamlined which is 100 minutes which is one hour and 40 minutes. So about 2 hours to collect the crops. My question would be does the code support multiple people collecting from one field? If someone had a farming community of 4-10 people and they always had a field to collect the economy would be much more stable instead of spurts of food into the economy it'd be more of a steady stream. And I noticed that somewhere it mentioned food spoiling and I was wondering if a building like a granary or storehouse would be available to store grains and foodstuffs in to make them last longer. Or if smoked meat would last longer than raw meat, etc. Another thing was that one one field could be placed in a location.

Each such local (500*500) zone can only support one field at the same time.
Does that mean 500 centimeters, inches, feet, yards, meters, miles, kilometers, nautical miles? Thou shalt label thy units.

[Lekkric]

So, planting trees requires the farming skill? Me no like :(. Although, i don't know what other skill it could be put under, except maybe an all-encompassing "forestry" skill.

The problem i have with this is that i plan for my character to be a Dalmite Ledri - "protector of the forest" - and planting and caring for trees will likely take a fair amount of my time (as well as "planting" poachers and unlicensed tree-cutters :D). I don't see how this will give my character the knowledge and skill to go out and farm some green beans on my days off.

Oh, and Teila, consider this my official request for Dalmiteship, if one is required :D .

[Canis]

I also believe (can't remember if this has changed) that the hours will be staggered. So if you always play at 8 pm est, it won't always be dark at that time...or always light.


Well that's nice. I agree with everything you say, I am here for role playing too and as long as the above is true everything is fine. Actually the above must be true if the lenght of day follows the seasons... in any case the duration of the day is just perfect.

[Teila]

I don't see how this will give my character the knowledge and skill to go out and farm some green beans on my days off.

Oh, and Teila, consider this my official request for Dalmiteship, if one is required :D .

You are now a Dalmite! *poof*

As for the planting skill, you are right, it may not be a perfect fit but its the best we can do at this time. No need to farm green beans since I doubt they will grow in the forest anyway. The soil is much to acidic. :)

Led'ri will plant trees and collect seeds as well so the farming skill will be useful. You probably won't be farming fruit and nuts, however, as a Led'ri you might find it useful to be able to harvest fruit and nuts from trees you might find in the forest or in town. And as a Led'ri a Dalmite farmer would be honored to have you steal his fruit. :)

[Lekkric]

You are now a Dalmite! *poof*

As for the planting skill, you are right, it may not be a perfect fit but its the best we can do at this time. No need to farm green beans since I doubt they will grow in the forest anyway. The soil is much to acidic. :)

Led'ri will plant trees and collect seeds as well so the farming skill will be useful. You probably won't be farming fruit and nuts, however, as a Led'ri you might find it useful to be able to harvest fruit and nuts from trees you might find in the forest or in town. And as a Led'ri a Dalmite farmer would be honored to have you steal his fruit. :)
Ah, they shall call me Lekkric, the honorable fruit thief :D .

[Paul Hutson]

Does that mean 500 centimeters, inches, feet, yards, meters, miles, kilometers, nautical miles? Thou shalt label thy units.

500 Meters

[Paul Hutson]

So, planting trees requires the farming skill? Me no like :(. Although, i don't know what other skill it could be put under, except maybe an all-encompassing "forestry" skill.

The problem i have with this is that i plan for my character to be a Dalmite Ledri - "protector of the forest" - and planting and caring for trees will likely take a fair amount of my time (as well as "planting" poachers and unlicensed tree-cutters :D). I don't see how this will give my character the knowledge and skill to go out and farm some green beans on my days off.

Oh, and Teila, consider this my official request for Dalmiteship, if one is required :D .

Remember it is only a part of the 'farming' skill, you can do it straight away - so you don't have to be good at farming to plant trees.

[Roo]

Farming

General description : By using actions related to farming the characters will be able to sow fields and trees, tend fields, as well as collect crops from all fields, trees and bushes.

Fields, trees and bushes are not character specific, which means that anyone can tend them (with fields) and that anyone will be able to collect the crops come harvest time.


Firstly I'd just like to say it was a joy to actually finally find a MMORPG that puts RPG first on the priority list...That said, I'd like to ask...

The description of the farming skill above states anyone can collect the crops come harvest time...I see that as an opportunity for groups of farmers/locals harvesting fields in a rotation. Thus cutting down the time required for the harvest.

IE: Old farmer Maggot's wheat field is due for harvesting, then a day or so later farmer Jones' pumpkins...followed by the widow Blackheart's onion's... So the local community gets together and helps out...The Farmer gets his/her produce in and to market earlier, and mayhaps some of the locals get a little pay in their pockets..

This would help RP along as well as build up relationships within a local area..On the other hand, I also see the possibility of nere-do-wells jumping the fence on a crop thats ready for harvest and helping themselves...

Are my assumptions right? Can anyone steal a farmers crops if left un-attended?

[Paul Hutson]

Firstly I'd just like to say it was a joy to actually finally find a MMORPG that puts RPG first on the priority list...That said, I'd like to ask...

The description of the farming skill above states anyone can collect the crops come harvest time...I see that as an opportunity for groups of farmers/locals harvesting fields in a rotation. Thus cutting down the time required for the harvest.

IE: Old farmer Maggot's wheat field is due for harvesting, then a day or so later farmer Jones' pumpkins...followed by the widow Blackheart's onion's... So the local community gets together and helps out...The Farmer gets his/her produce in and to market earlier, and mayhaps some of the locals get a little pay in their pockets..

This would help RP along as well as build up relationships within a local area..On the other hand, I also see the possibility of nere-do-wells jumping the fence on a crop thats ready for harvest and helping themselves...

Are my assumptions right? Can anyone steal a farmers crops if left un-attended?

At this time those assumptions are right, we were hoping to make a realistic world in which people all depend on one another. Farmers depend on like minded folk to help them at harvest time (to get their harvest to a safe place quickly) and they also depend on Soldiers to protect their lands/buildings. In turn soldiers depend on the farmers and food makers in order to live. This is an example of just one of the many interdependant relation ships that Adellion has 'built in.'

However, if we find that the system is abused then we will limit the harvesting to people that are on the farmers 'friend' list, I would hope not to have to do that to be honest.

[Towe]

However, if we find that the system is abused then we will limit the harvesting to people that are on the farmers 'friend' list, I would hope not to have to do that to be honest.
Friend list?
Why not make the harvest skill-dependend? (Only to stop the abuse)
It doesnt seem so unrealistic and should stop it since farmers shouldnt travel that much...

[Aharon]

Friend list?
Why not make the harvest skill-dependend? (Only to stop the abuse)
It doesnt seem so unrealistic and should stop it since farmers shouldnt travel that much...

I think people are thinking about 'skills' the wrong way. If an action is listed under a skill it doesnt mean you have to train that skill to be able to do that action. What it means is that the more you do that action the better you become at the skill. You won't have to manually up your skills using points after every level, you simply become better at the skill the more you do it.

Lekkric, you can still plant trees and seeds whenever you want, the more you plant the better at 'farming' you will be become - just make sure you keep your fighting skills sharp so you can properly defend those trees. :P

[l33tuo3r]

I think people are thinking about 'skills' the wrong way. If an action is listed under a skill it doesnt mean you have to train that skill to be able to do that action. What it means is that the more you do that action the better you become at the skill. You won't have to manually up your skills using points after every level, you simply become better at the skill the more you do it.

Lekkric, you can still plant trees and seeds whenever you want, the more you plant the better at 'farming' you will be become - just make sure you keep your fighting skills sharp so you can properly defend those trees. :P

I was thinking about skills the wrong way, and now im glad to have been enlightened on how they really work. To me, this adds to roleplaying in a sense that it would be realistic for someone to know how to do just about everything (or use all skills) out of a common sense, to a certain point, and obviously the more you do it the better you get at it.

I have a question about your comment to Lekkric that says "you can still plant trees and seeds whenever you want, the more you plant the better at 'farming' you will be become - just make sure you keep your fighting skills sharp so you can properly defend those trees.", I have read in the FAQ where is says you can take multiple skills or specialize in a particular area, but i havent seen anything on skill caps yet (unless ive read it and already misplaced the information). Is there a skill cap so to speak, in the sense of you are only alotted a set amount of 'skill points' similiar to the Ultima Online skill system to where if i train too much in some things im forced to lost knowledge on other skills, or if i take the time and effort could i train in all skills or an exceptionally large amount of skills as long as i played long enough to keep them all maintained?

[Mhorham]

As a graduate in Horticultural Sciences from an Agricultural Collage, I would like to say I am impressed with the design ;)

Growing time (1-4 weeks)
Harvest time (3 days)
Withering time (1 day)
Infertile time (1 week)

The only thing I can think of to comment on right now is infertility and the absence of crop rotation. Once a crop, say corn, is harvested a crop of leguminious (peas) species could be sown and would actually boost the fertility of the soil. This happens irl due to the fact that leguminious plants fix nitrogen taken from the atmosphere into nodules attached to their roots. The N is modified by a bacteria that lives symbiotically within the nodules and made plant ready for the next crop to utilize. Leaving soil exposed is bad practice, leading to erosion by both wind and rain as well as breakdown of soil structures (pedology)

Such interaction with the plants and soils are the key reason for crop rotation. Pests of certain species reach epidemic levels if the same crop is repeatedly grown in the same area, levels of specific nutrients are exhausted and the soil becomes infertile. However constant cultivation with proper rotation improves soil retention, structure and fertility providing a better harvest of desired crops.

From a game perspective having to make decisions with respect to carefully managing crop rotation and not just planting the same crop repeatedly could provide a more challenging system to farming. There is also the option of Swidden agriculture (slash and burn) that is the traditional system employed in tropical regions. With this system a field is used only a few times until it becomes infertile and a new area is cleared. Allowing the old field to regrow and rebuild its soil structure and fertility.


I'd keep the field sizes minimal and let the crops be rotated to maintain soil fertility, or not and loose % of successive harvests of crops not beneficial to rotation cycles.

[Teila]

[QUOTE=l33tuo3rIs there a skill cap so to speak, in the sense of you are only alotted a set amount of 'skill points' similiar to the Ultima Online skill system to where if i train too much in some things im forced to lost knowledge on other skills, or if i take the time and effort could i train in all skills or an exceptionally large amount of skills as long as i played long enough to keep them all maintained?[/QUOTE]


There is a daily skill cap. Your skill will increase the most in the skill you used the most, then increase in smaller amounts for the lesser used skills. However, you will not gain more skill if you practice all day long rather than a few hours. This is to control powerleveling, which is a huge problem in many MMORPGs and to give casual players a chance to compete to some extent in the world.

Skills will also atrophy if not used over time although they will never go below a certain skill use level.

So, if Lekkric spends 2 hours planting trees, 1 hour battling poachers, and a half hour cooking his dinner, he will see the biggest increase that day in farming, the second in his weapon, and the third in cooking. If he doesn't plant for a couple of weeks, but does other things, he may find a small decrease in his farming skills since he has not used them...his skills are a bit rusty, so to speak.

There are no skill points to use up as in other games. You can learn everything if you wish but you won't be very skilled in any one thing since you will have to trade off practicing on specific skill in order to keep all skills at some useful level.

Does that make sense? If you go to the Stratics board and do a search for skill cap you will probably find more information. :)

[l33tuo3r]

There are no skill points to use up as in other games. You can learn everything if you wish but you won't be very skilled in any one thing since you will have to trade off practicing on specific skill in order to keep all skills at some useful level.

Ok, i know that there only a certain amount of skill that can be gained in a day, which is a system i think is grande, so what im getting from your statement is... well lets make it easy and ill give you to examples. I have 100 skill points i can earn in one day, is that a 100 skill points for each skill or a hundred skill to distribute among skills. [example] I gain 30 in cooking, 40 in smithing and 30 in farming and i can no longer gain today. I gain 100 cooking, 90 smithing and 90 farming because i play for 12 hours and have time to work on other skills when i skill cap one. Ok, hopefully the examples made my question easier to answer. You reply told me what i needed to know in some aspect but left me hanging on this part.

[ragtooth]

Well, as you will know by now the Farming skill and previews of several models by Kevin have been uploaded to the main website.

Do you have any thoughts, questions or comments about any of the updates? The development team would love to hear them!
Paul,

I hope by now you have come to recognize my Nick and to recognize that most of my comments are well thought out here. I had several reactions to all of the information being posted.

Forgive me for saying this but there was something just not right with the face models. They had kind of an effete cast to them. I don't know...not enought testosterone?, Being bald? I am not sure but they just seemed a little off and a little bit (VERY SUBTLE) female. Really forgive me for the observation I may be the only one to even think this, it could be arround the eyes I don't know.

With farming I liked what was there, I would like to say that if the field is not harvested in time that maybe the field should be given up immediately for planting. Consider rotting vegatable matter a fertilizer rather than a further depletion of resources. Say as long as there was less than 10% of the field harvested then it would be considered as fallow rather than depleted.

Also I was wondering a couple things. How do I get pesants? If I get pesants and plant my field(s) and assign 2 peants per field to tend it are they there 24x7 or do they go home in the evening. Are they always there tending the field(s) do they have homes close by? Do they have families. How much depth do the Player owned NPCs have? How effective are my pesants for tending my field. Do their skills improve over time? How do I pay them? With food, coin farm implements? How much and how far in advance can I pay them? Say I plant and then am on a business trip or holidays with the wife and kids for a week or 2 do I need to stop in regularly or can I pay up in advance? Do they use a hoe too? What is the hoe breaks while I am away can I have several of them for the NPC so that if 1 breaks they can use another? Sorry this is probably going further than you were interested in. What about milling and cooking bread will there be a miller profession or is it rolled in to the farming or cooking profession. Further to that what about other professions. You said miner is not a profession of its own anymore...is it part of the blacksmith trade or something else? What about smelting of ore is it the job of the miner or the blacksmith? or is it the job for a smelter profession. What about charcoal who makes that or is it needed, is wood it?
Ooops I ended up rambling and talking about blacksmithing again...an area near and dear to my heart.

Thank you,

[VenomByte]

Looking around the board, I think a lot of people seem to have a lot of questions about the game mechanics regarding NPC's working for a player - hiring, maintenance, orders, etc, etc. Maybe something could be added to the FAQ? (*hint hint*)

:)

[Teila]

Ok, i know that there only a certain amount of skill that can be gained in a day, which is a system i think is grande, so what im getting from your statement is... well lets make it easy and ill give you to examples. I have 100 skill points i can earn in one day, is that a 100 skill points for each skill or a hundred skill to distribute among skills. [example] I gain 30 in cooking, 40 in smithing and 30 in farming and i can no longer gain today. I gain 100 cooking, 90 smithing and 90 farming because i play for 12 hours and have time to work on other skills when i skill cap one. Ok, hopefully the examples made my question easier to answer. You reply told me what i needed to know in some aspect but left me hanging on this part.


Not exactly, you will earn 'points' in a skill you use the most up to a cap. So if you practice that skill for 12 hours or 3 hours, you will only earn the skill to the limit of that cap. The second most used skill that day will earn a bit less, the third even less. The daily skill cap is for ALL skills used that day, not just each skill. You cannot earn the max cap in one skill, then the max cap in a second skill, and then the max in a third skill. Only one can earn max per day. So rather than spend 12 hours using your skills to earn points, you will be roleplaying or making items for sale or politicking, or making contacts, or gathering supplies, etc.

[l33tuo3r]

Not exactly, you will earn 'points' in a skill you use the most up to a cap. So if you practice that skill for 12 hours or 3 hours, you will only earn the skill to the limit of that cap. The second most used skill that day will earn a bit less, the third even less. The daily skill cap is for ALL skills used that day, not just each skill. You cannot earn the max cap in one skill, then the max cap in a second skill, and then the max in a third skill. Only one can earn max per day. So rather than spend 12 hours using your skills to earn points, you will be roleplaying or making items for sale or politicking, or making contacts, or gathering supplies, etc.

Ahh, great! that was exactly the answer i was looking for, thankyou!

[Saxxan]

Edit to remove misplaced reply...

[Deena]

Looking around the board, I think a lot of people seem to have a lot of questions about the game mechanics regarding NPC's working for a player - hiring, maintenance, orders, etc, etc. Maybe something could be added to the FAQ? (*hint hint*)

:)


Venom ... there is a lot of info on the Stratic boards about NPCs or at least ideas about them.

[Deena]

As a graduate in Horticultural Sciences from an Agricultural Collage, ...

The only thing I can think of to comment on right now is infertility and the absence of crop rotation. Once a crop, say corn, is harvested a crop of leguminious (peas) species could be sown and would actually boost the fertility of the soil. This happens irl due to the fact that leguminious plants fix nitrogen taken from the atmosphere into nodules attached to their roots. The N is modified by a bacteria that lives symbiotically within the nodules and made plant ready for the next crop to utilize. Leaving soil exposed is bad practice, leading to erosion by both wind and rain as well as breakdown of soil structures (pedology)

Such interaction with the plants and soils are the key reason for crop rotation. Pests of certain species reach epidemic levels if the same crop is repeatedly grown in the same area, levels of specific nutrients are exhausted and the soil becomes infertile. However constant cultivation with proper rotation improves soil retention, structure and fertility providing a better harvest of desired crops.

From a game perspective having to make decisions with respect to carefully managing crop rotation and not just planting the same crop repeatedly could provide a more challenging system to farming. There is also the option of Swidden agriculture (slash and burn) that is the traditional system employed in tropical regions. With this system a field is used only a few times until it becomes infertile and a new area is cleared. Allowing the old field to regrow and rebuild its soil structure and fertility.
...



For this game having rotation maybe a bit much. Having the ground lay empty for a time can represent this IRL aspect methinks without adding coding. I do not think insects are going to be in this game but perhaps some sort of natural destruction of crops could occur (what say you Paul and Devs?). Crop failure in an area would cause some roleplaying to be turned up a notch if you ask me without having to add too much to the game engine.


The idea of planting a crop that helps another crop would be a nice addition, even a crop that hinders might be a nice addition ... good reason for farming skill and technical advancements in the skill; using inventing with farming.

[Deena]

For the poster above talking about having NPCs tending field and keeping them paid etc ...

This is the very reason I thought that having a 'closet' where 'pay' and tools for the NPCs could be stored for just that purpose or perhaps having to have some sort of housing/room for the laboring NPCs that have extra 'pay' and tools for them to use incase of breakage, wear, or vacation/holiday etc ...

[Deena]

Well, as you will know by now the Farming skill and previews of several models by Kevin have been uploaded to the main website.

Do you have any thoughts, questions or comments about any of the updates? The development team would love to hear them!



Ok, I said some stuff on another thread but cannot remember what I wrote so you will need to look it up *girn, not sure which board either.

Additional thoughts here ... I was thinking about harvast time ... I understand the reasoning behind having only the PCs being able to harvest but could not the NPCs help as well. PCs would still have to be present for the harvesting to occur but NPCs could help speed up the process; if the PC that governed the NPC was harvesting then the NPC could harvest as well. Having medium & large farms is going to be a problem without the NPCs helping during harvest time. Personally, I would rather see NPCs not being able to tend fields (unless it is a non-skill sort of activity) unless the PC was around to 'supervise' their work sort of thing; perhaps each task taking longer or not as efficient doing the task. What I see this idea doing is making those that are not at home (ie off wondering around) is having crops come to harvest on a normal growth cycle of the plant/crop instead of speeding up the harvest of the crop. If the PC is hungry then they need to stick around and tend the fields and use the NPCs to help tend the fields.

I would like to see the models for the crops and orchards/trees ... maybe even the bushes.

When I come up with more questions and suggestions I will be posting again ... need to re-read skill for them.

[Mhorham]

To further my suggestion of crop rotation, separation of crops into categories is likely part of the model already since there are geographical limitations to crop production proposed. Without seeing the original model I envision a second tier of division, the first being geographical and the second rotational.

A simple division into three categories, seed producers/root producers/flower producers could be used for rotation. This would avoid all the technical stuff related to rotation and still provide a reason for doing it. As long as the successive crop is not from the same "producer category" there would be no harvest penalty imposed. However is someone chose to plant successive crops from the same category a 20% decline in yield would occur. The reason behind this is to prevent the field from being used to pump out the same crop over and over again in a mundane and somewhat automated money making machine. Determining the most efficient crop would involve knowing where the field/fields under your influence were in their rotational cycles as well as what crop with the highest return was. It would effectively double the amount of thought and risk associated with selecting a particular crop type.

If there is enough of a return to warrant it, then duplication of a crop could still pay even with the 20% reduction in yield. A third sowing with another 20% penalty would have to be carefully considered however. This still only enhances the amount of thought required to "Get It Right", and would make the farming aspect of the game more enjoyable :D

[Kurshuk]

Then there comes into play what the technology in game is and indeed, what your character knows. For example if they made a complete model of real farming then you would have an advantage because of your OOC knowledge. I'm not sure when crop rotation was found to help farming but I'm fairly sure it wasn't until lately (last 200-500 years). I thought that most places let feilds lay in fallow while their nutriants returned to them. I'd like as much realism as possible without making the game unlevel because of more modern science and OOC knowledge.

[Dustywaters]

As for person who mentioned changing the year to 3 weeks real life time...YIKES! That means 17 years will pass in one years time! This is not good at all for roleplay. I know I would like to play my characters for some time before they become too old to do anything,

Remember...Adellion is being created for roleplayers. Finally...a game that meets the needs of roleplayers rather than forcing us to adjust to the non-roleplaying features of other games. :)

I heartily agree Teila. I am ready for the game that meets RP needs.

[Liila]

So my question, as it regards harvesting/farming is, can a single person walk by a tree and pick a single apple to assuage their hunger, or must they attempt to 'harvest' all the apples off of that tree?

[Aethiryn]

Then there comes into play what the technology in game is and indeed, what your character knows. For example if they made a complete model of real farming then you would have an advantage because of your OOC knowledge. I'm not sure when crop rotation was found to help farming but I'm fairly sure it wasn't until lately (last 200-500 years). I thought that most places let feilds lay in fallow while their nutriants returned to them. I'd like as much realism as possible without making the game unlevel because of more modern science and OOC knowledge.

Actually crop-rotation is medieval technology.

[Sepiroth696]

I think its a good thing

[Sir Sigmund]

Its good to see growing times and night and day time staggered. For those players working jobs with fixed hours this be helpful to them so they can get a feel for all the seasons and times of the day. Not just stuck with one certain time period cause they job got in the way. :)

[fastjacl]

yeah sigmund, i really liked that aspect, the 9 hour game day, because i know that many people have to work 9-5 and this way they dont always play at midnight in game time.

[Equalizer]

So my question, as it regards harvesting/farming is, can a single person walk by a tree and pick a single apple to assuage their hunger, or must they attempt to 'harvest' all the apples off of that tree?
If I were them I would harvest all of them. That way when they travel to the coast and take a nap, I can plunder their apples from a quick pirate foraging party and get off the fish, rum and Capilis for awhile.

[cyber101]

Can we burn someones fields? (either NPC or online characters)

[Spooks782]

Yea we can.

[Deena]

Actually crop-rotation is medieval technology.

Charlemagne changed the crop rotation to dividing the land by thirds thus leaving one field fallow and added lentel crop for the protein and calories that crop provided his subjects and fodder for cattle and horses.

[Bakuzelas]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)

[Roo]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)

I have no doubt there will be harvest festivals in certain cultures.:)

[Spooks782]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)
Their probably will, but the people will have to start it. I dont the stuff will "appear" there. This is a roleplay game, if you want to make benches and stuff in a park like place, you can.

[Teila]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)

The Dalmites have a festival to celebrate the goddess Alondra, the patron deity of farmers and herders.

[Deena]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)


I intend to have one though with year round crop harvesting as is planned I will use the god system and make it a holiday celebration type thing ... maybe with lots of drinking due to hops being a crop ... ya thats it! *giggles

[Bakuzelas]

I intend to have one though with year round crop harvesting as is planned I will use the god system and make it a holiday celebration type thing ... maybe with lots of drinking due to hops being a crop ... ya thats it! *giggles
mmmm...beer!
*votes for the beer festival* lol

[blackpete]

Is there land ownership for fields? If you plant a field of crops, do you have to own the land in order to do so?

Can anyone come into your field and steal your crops? In other words if you plant crops are you the only one who can harvest the crops? What stops anyone from harvesting the crops that you had planted?

[Teila]

Is there land ownership for fields? If you plant a field of crops, do you have to own the land in order to do so?

Can anyone come into your field and steal your crops? In other words if you plant crops are you the only one who can harvest the crops? What stops anyone from harvesting the crops that you had planted?

No, you do not have to own the land, but you better be careful someone else hasn't claimed it already. And yes, anyone can gather your crops so it might be wise to have a guard or two. Of course, the anyone better have some skill in farming as well.

[Spooks782]

Is there land ownership for fields? If you plant a field of crops, do you have to own the land in order to do so?

Can anyone come into your field and steal your crops? In other words if you plant crops are you the only one who can harvest the crops? What stops anyone from harvesting the crops that you had planted?
Others can harvest your crops, so ussually farmers hire NPC's to guard them. The NPC's will attack intruders. Also others can destroy your crops. They can do almost anything you can do in real life, so i would hire a few NPC's and not make my field to big...

[Sir Sigmund]

Others can harvest your crops, so ussually farmers hire NPC's to guard them. The NPC's will attack intruders. Also others can destroy your crops. They can do almost anything you can do in real life, so i would hire a few NPC's and not make my field to big...

That is the key right their. Ensuring that all your fields are in near a central location. Then have a few NPC farmers/guards that can watch your fields.

Hate to buy seeds only to be see your fields get plundered or worse. Eeeek

[Towe]

Well yea, but I doubt it will happen that often.
Its just not worth it and could be considered griefing, I mean how do you want to roleplay this when not in war?

[Teila]

Well yea, but I doubt it will happen that often.
Its just not worth it and could be considered griefing, I mean how do you want to roleplay this when not in war?

I doubt it will happen that often. Someone might occassionally steal a turnip or two out of your garden or an apple out of your orchard, but realistic carrying weights will keep people from stealing your entire harvest. So don't worry about this too much. :)

[Spooks782]

Well yea, but I doubt it will happen that often.
Its just not worth it and could be considered griefing, I mean how do you want to roleplay this when not in war? Im hungry.

I am a thief, what would you expect?

I am very greedy.

Many reasons to chose from.

[Spooks782]

I doubt it will happen that often. Someone might occassionally steal a turnip or two out of your garden or an apple out of your orchard, but realistic carrying weights will keep people from stealing your entire harvest. So don't worry about this too much. :)
It might, if someone knows that a farm is unprotected, they might came frequently, untill they see NPC's or something that might stop them.

[Teila]

It might, if someone knows that a farm is unprotected, they might came frequently, untill they see NPC's or something that might stop them.

It would take a long time to carry away enough turnips to really hurt the farm. And then they have to store them somewhere and sell them....remember, no long distant instant travel so they would probably have to sell them locally. In the meantime, the Farmer travels to the local towns and posts a note on the town bulletin board telling everyone his turnips were stolen. The local bounty hunter who wants a reason to attack someone just has to look for the guy hauling turnips by the backpack full to the nearest produce buyer. :)

[Spooks782]

It would take a long time to carry away enough turnips to really hurt the farm. And then they have to store them somewhere and sell them....remember, no long distant instant travel so they would probably have to sell them locally. In the meantime, the Farmer travels to the local towns and posts a note on the town bulletin board telling everyone his turnips were stolen. The local bounty hunter who wants a reason to attack someone just has to look for the guy hauling turnips by the backpack full to the nearest produce buyer. :) I remember, but if you and 3 other friends, each with no armor or anything, and a wagon nearby, keep storing them in the wagon, then you should be able to get quite a bit before your found.

Its possible...

[Teila]

I remember, but if you and 3 other friends, each with no armor or anything, and a wagon nearby, keep storing them in the wagon, then you should be able to get quite a bit before your found.

Its possible...

We shall see. It would be quite suspicious to see a wagon and horses going into a field and spending enough time to pick all the crops. The chances of this happening and the person getting away with it are slim. :) Besides, wagons and horses will cost a LOT of money. Anyone who has the money to buy those certainly will have no reason to be stealing a turnip field. And they certainly are not going to risk their lives if they have worked hard enough to get that wagon and horses.

Honestly, I think just as in real life, thieves will be small groups or loners who steal just because its easy to do and they can make a quick buck. If its difficult, takes time, takes money, and won't reward big enough, it simply won't happen. With permadeath, risking your life to steal crops when the guards could be well armed might not be worthwhile.

[Sir Sigmund]

Besides, wagons and horses will cost a LOT of money. Anyone who has the money to buy those certainly will have no reason to be stealing a turnip field. And they certainly are not going to risk their lives if they have worked hard enough to get that wagon and horses.

With permadeath, risking your life to steal crops when the guards could be well armed might not be worthwhile.

Funny how movie stars and famous singers have been caught shop lifting in stores. They get caught for trying to steal something that cost anywhere from $1 up to $100. Yet when you check the wallets/purses they got a couple hundred bucks on them or over a grand. Explain that one. People will steal in game Just cause they can or want to try and get away with something. Their is a Thrill in doing something illegal and then trying to get away with it.

Once again, some folks kill off characters just after hours of playing. Bored player could careless about Perma death and might just want to try anything for a thrill.

[Teila]

Funny how movie stars and famous singers have been caught shop lifting in stores. They get caught for trying to steal something that cost anywhere from $1 up to $100. Yet when you check the wallets/purses they got a couple hundred bucks on them or over a grand. Explain that one. People will steal in game Just cause they can or want to try and get away with something. Their is a Thrill in doing something illegal and then trying to get away with it.

Once again, some folks kill off characters just after hours of playing. Bored player could careless about Perma death and might just want to try anything for a thrill.

That would be greifing and we have other ways to deal with that.

[Sir Sigmund]

Its stealing, and my point was that folks will steal. :)

[Ymir]

I still feel that the penalties of permadeath aren't high enough. Why three strikes? Why not two? Though I understand Sigmund's argument, most griefers put a a lot of time into making their characters the fastest, leanest, guard-evading, player-killing machines possible. Guards will still make them run.

[Teila]

I still feel that the penalties of permadeath aren't high enough. Why three strikes? Why not two? Though I understand Sigmund's argument, most griefers put a a lot of time into making their characters the fastest, leanest, guard-evading, player-killing machines possible. Guards will still make them run.

Actually, a better punishment for griefers might be to take away a 'death' everytime they are caught griefing. :D You could do it ICly too..just execute them.

[Sir Sigmund]

Oh oh oh, can we use the Guilotten? hehehe Ok, that would be even to gore for me. And trust me I seen a lot of dead bodies when I was in Iraq.

Now that to real life. I pass on that. But Teila thanks for letting us think it. :)

[Liila]

Im hungry.

I am a thief, what would you expect?

I am very greedy.

Many reasons to chose from.


Some farmers have "public" rows, that they expect may get harvested by passers' by, or the hungry. Basically the first few rows of crop are considered 'open harvest' to anyone hungry enough to take something right out of the field and munch it.
If we create some sort of common law (in whatever township we choose to inhabit) where the first 2-3 rows may be eaten from with impugnity (for those who are starving, vs those who are merely too lazy to grow their own), then it could just become one of those "understood" facts of life in that town/city.

And of course, a farmer would be able to tell over time if he was getting hit regularly, or if it was a random, sporadic kind of looting. A regular lifting of produce might indicate someone using the farmer's field as his personal food source, in which case the farmer could set out a watch to record who is approaching his field, and then come to them in town with a bill of lading or something.

Essentially, it would still fall upon the farmer to police his own fields, but in a role-play environment, allow some people to harvest single fruits/vegetables if they are starving or just playing an all-out theif. Most farmers would then learn to plant a few extra rows above and beyond the yield they intend to harvest, which would have the added benefit of giving them a cushion in case of a poor crop yeild year.

I don't plan on farming myself, but I like the idea for the Dalmite culture as well...because even though the food will be communal, there will be those travelling through (like the Ledri) who may just need to have a bite to eat, and who could, without fear of reprisal, eat from any farm's land as s/he sees fit.

[Sir Sigmund]

Now that is a niffy idea. Not from a large farming community that is good to know and understand.

Thanks

[Teila]

Some farmers have "public" rows, that they expect may get harvested by passers' by, or the hungry. Basically the first few rows of crop are considered 'open harvest' to anyone hungry enough to take something right out of the field and munch it.
If we create some sort of common law (in whatever township we choose to inhabit) where the first 2-3 rows may be eaten from with impugnity (for those who are starving, vs those who are merely too lazy to grow their own), then it could just become one of those "understood" facts of life in that town/city.

And of course, a farmer would be able to tell over time if he was getting hit regularly, or if it was a random, sporadic kind of looting. A regular lifting of produce might indicate someone using the farmer's field as his personal food source, in which case the farmer could set out a watch to record who is approaching his field, and then come to them in town with a bill of lading or something.

Essentially, it would still fall upon the farmer to police his own fields, but in a role-play environment, allow some people to harvest single fruits/vegetables if they are starving or just playing an all-out theif. Most farmers would then learn to plant a few extra rows above and beyond the yield they intend to harvest, which would have the added benefit of giving them a cushion in case of a poor crop yeild year.

I don't plan on farming myself, but I like the idea for the Dalmite culture as well...because even though the food will be communal, there will be those travelling through (like the Ledri) who may just need to have a bite to eat, and who could, without fear of reprisal, eat from any farm's land as s/he sees fit.

Its an interesting idea, but to do this, we would have to somehow make the other rows 'unharvestable' by folks that do not own the fields. We don't want to do this because it is unrealistic. However, it might be wise for farmers to realize that a certain percentage of their crop might fall to thieves and plant extra just in case. Remember, reprisal is roleplay...a farmer can allow folks to steal from his plot by simply not doing anything about it or not posting guards.

As for communal plots for the Dalmites, all plots are communal and our culture can make them available for everyone to harvest if that is what we wish to choose.

Also, the forage skill will be useful and powerful for all, especially in certain lush terrains. It will be much easier to forage for food than to farm for food so unless someone wants to sell the food, my guess is they will forage first. Also, food rots....so if you steal too much food or forage too much food, and can't or don't sell it, you will end up with a rotten lump of food rather than anything useful cluttering up your backpack. :)

[Liila]

Oh, I agree...I didn't really mean that it should be hard-coded; more like a suggestion on how farmers might "play it out". Community leaders too, might consider some sort of 'allowance' for filching in their common laws or something.

[Sir Sigmund]

^^^ Liila as I said I love your idea. It gives me a good roleplaying twist and angle to use and play with. :)

[Deena]

Since I indeed to be a farmer type *evil grin ... woe be it the thief that steals from my clan.

IRL farmers have loots on a fairly regular basis. And like IRL usually it is small amounts due to the time and storage to get any large enough amounts to make it worth someone's while. My guess it will be just passerbyers ... and some of the time what they pick will be ripe enough to eat.

I hope the foraging skill is not the easiest otherwise we won't need farming.


I had posted once a write up of what is culturally exceptible on this very nature ... to a Taran ... not sure about the crazy one and his thoughts ... errr ... can we call them thoughts? ... well anyways.

[Teila]

Since I indeed to be a farmer type *evil grin ... woe be it the thief that steals from my clan.

IRL farmers have loots on a fairly regular basis. And like IRL usually it is small amounts due to the time and storage to get any large enough amounts to make it worth someone's while. My guess it will be just passerbyers ... and some of the time what they pick will be ripe enough to eat.

I hope the foraging skill is not the easiest otherwise we won't need farming.


I had posted once a write up of what is culturally exceptible on this very nature ... to a Taran ... not sure about the crazy one and his thoughts ... errr ... can we call them thoughts? ... well anyways.

Foraging will not replace farming. :)

[Snitz]

as a Led'ri I plan to forage and hunt for most of my food but on occasion when I am among my peoples farms I might snag an apple from an orchard
I would hope they would not frown this since I am one of their protectors.

[Teila]

as a Led'ri I plan to forage and hunt for most of my food but on occasion when I am among my peoples farms I might snag an apple from an orchard
I would hope they would not frown this since I am one of their protectors.

Ledri are special. :) Dalmites are blessed if a Ledri takes an apple from their trees. In fact, it is even more an honor for a family to host a Ledri for a night and provide him with food and shelter.

[durek]

I hope the foraging skill is not the easiest otherwise we won't need farming.
This is an easy problem to solve. Some recipes will have to require specific foods that cannot be foraged and they will be the foods that give the highest desireable results from eating. Problem Solved! :p

[durek]

It would take a long time to carry away enough turnips to really hurt the farm. And then they have to store them somewhere and sell them....remember, no long distant instant travel so they would probably have to sell them locally. In the meantime, the Farmer travels to the local towns and posts a note on the town bulletin board telling everyone his turnips were stolen. The local bounty hunter who wants a reason to attack someone just has to look for the guy hauling turnips by the backpack full to the nearest produce buyer. :)Heck, no backpack full here. We hired NPCs to help pick and loaded a wagon and were heading for the border to sell them in another country...hehe. j/k :D Matter of fact, I better work with the pirate. Lets get them turnips off of the continent and into a foreign market!

[Teila]

This is an easy problem to solve. Some recipes will have to require specific foods that cannot be foraged and they will be the foods that give the highest desireable results from eating. Problem Solved! :p

Actually, some foraged foods will be very nutritional..but they will not be found everywhere and they might still require cooking skills to make...it all depends on the culture and the climate/terrain.

[Teila]

Heck, no backpack full here. We hired NPCs to help pick and loaded a wagon and were heading for the border to sell them in another country...hehe. j/k :D Matter of fact, I better work with the pirate. Lets get them turnips off of the continent and into a foreign market!

All kidding aside, you won't make enough money off stolen turnips to hire many if any NPCs and even then, they will work slowly so your chances of getting caught increase. Anytime you do something that draws attention to yourself, such as have a group of players or npcs stealing enmass, you are going to increase your chances of getting caught.

[Robc]

I am brand shiny new to Adellion, I have read the FAQs and everything I can get a hold of but its not all sticking yet... so forgive the question if it is answered elsewhere and I have missed it.

I love this thread, farming sounds great. My question is on one of the sub-topics in the thread. Let's say I am a farmer working in my field and I spot a passerby who snags an apple, a turnip, or whatever from my field without my permission. I confront them... and it could get ugly. If I haul off and strike the first blow because I feel I have been wronged... what are the consequences? Do I have to worry about guards labelling me as some kind of criminal? Or must I withold my blow and report the theft to guards of some sort? Or does nothing happen until one of us cries 'uncle' or dies in a fight? Can anyone shed light on how such an interaction might play out? Thanks very much.

EDIT: As is so often the case, I found my own answer in the Notoriety Thread of the Ideas forum... reputation is given by other players and not by NPCs or game mechanics. Since I now know the answer, please ignore the question. Someday I'll learn the secret as to which threads to read first... even after two days of reading stuff on Adellion I still haven't gotten to all of the important information yet... ;)

[Teila]

I am brand shiny new to Adellion, I have read the FAQs and everything I can get a hold of but its not all sticking yet... so forgive the question if it is answered elsewhere and I have missed it.

I love this thread, farming sounds great. My question is on one of the sub-topics in the thread. Let's say I am a farmer working in my field and I spot a passerby who snags an apple, a turnip, or whatever from my field without my permission. I confront them... and it could get ugly. If I haul off and strike the first blow because I feel I have been wronged... what are the consequences? Do I have to worry about guards labelling me as some kind of criminal? Or must I withold my blow and report the theft to guards of some sort? Or does nothing happen until one of us cries 'uncle' or dies in a fight? Can anyone shed light on how such an interaction might play out? Thanks very much.

EDIT: As is so often the case, I found my own answer in the Notoriety Thread of the Ideas forum... reputation is given by other players and not by NPCs or game mechanics. Since I now know the answer, please ignore the question. Someday I'll learn the secret as to which threads to read first... even after two days of reading stuff on Adellion I still haven't gotten to all of the important information yet... ;)

Actually...if you were in a town and you attacked someone, you could be stopped by the guards, even if it was just to protect yourself..although in most towns, you probably would not be killed by the guards. Some towns might be stricter...but not sure how many will want to live in those towns. :)

However, your farm will probably not be in a town. So its really not a problem. You can hire your own guards but they won't attack you unless you treat them reaaaaallllly badly. :)

[Robc]

You can hire your own guards but they won't attack you unless you treat them reaaaaallllly badly. :)

I forgot about the possibility of NPC guards. Will the AI of my hired hands be sophisticated enough to follow my instructions regarding handling petty theft when I am not around? Or do they remain docile unless I am present? Would I be able to leave orders such as "attack anyone" who steals my crops? Or only atttack those who damage my crops but petty theft is ok? Or attack any trespassers at all? Or how about; attack strangers who steal, but allow folks from my town who snag an apple or two to be unmolested?

I am guessing that sophisticated orders would be very hard to develop into the game, but the more sophisticated the orders to your NPC can be the better.

Referring back to the idea that certain rows could be considered public... now there would be a challenging order! ;) Attack anyone who steals from rows 4-10... but only give the finger to those who steal from rows 1-3. But never give the finger to the town religous leader. And of course my family can eat all they want as long as it's not my brother-in-law Billy who I am feuding with right now. I am kidding of course. ;)

Thanks for the response!

[Teila]

I forgot about the possibility of NPC guards. Will the AI of my hired hands be sophisticated enough to follow my instructions regarding handling petty theft when I am not around? Or do they remain docile unless I am present? Would I be able to leave orders such as "attack anyone" who steals my crops? Or only atttack those who damage my crops but petty theft is ok? Or attack any trespassers at all? Or how about; attack strangers who steal, but allow folks from my town who snag an apple or two to be unmolested?

I am guessing that sophisticated orders would be very hard to develop into the game, but the more sophisticated the orders to your NPC can be the better.

Referring back to the idea that certain rows could be considered public... now there would be a challenging order! ;) Attack anyone who steals from rows 4-10... but only give the finger to those who steal from rows 1-3. But never give the finger to the town religous leader. And of course my family can eat all they want as long as it's not my brother-in-law Billy who I am feuding with right now. I am kidding of course. ;)

Thanks for the response!

No, it won't be that sophisticated...or I doubt it will be. You will be able to set your npcs to engage in lethal or non-lethal attacks. So you could have them attack anyone who steals..but not kill them. Or you could have them kill the person. I doubt we can make it so that he could steal one item and get away with it...although you never know. I am amazed at what they can do. :) You probably will be able to set the range of the npc..or they will have an automatic range. So if you didn't care about the apple tree by the lane, you could just put your guards near your other trees and leave that one available for those vagrants.

I am guessing it will start out pretty simple and maybe become more complex later if possible.

[cmudd02]

Having grown up on a farm I will put in my 2 cents.

1) Lot Size: 500 x 500 meters is way to big. That works out to be over 50 acres per field. The farm I grew up on in Missouri was only 360 acres and only 300 of it was ever planted using modern machinery and tech. Using 4 tractors at once it would normally take 3-4 weeks to plant with about a week of downtown because of weather.

2) Once it's planted it still needs to be weeded. This is a major project and without hericides is a much larger project. Entire crops can be lost to weeds if nothing is done.

This is also why you don't find the practice of planting a field, harvest a field, repeat, anywhere.

3) Theft. Until the crop is ripe, there is no reason to steal it. Corps that haven't ripen are more likely to make you sick then wealthy.

4) Weather: You can do everything right, but if the weather doesn't cooperate as in getting the right amount of rain at the right time and the right amount of sun/heat at the right time the yields will suffer. So even if your farming stills are 100%, you should still have bad crops every so often.

5) Livestock: It is a commn practice to run livestock in harvested fields to clean up the missed grain an reduce the amount of livestock feed used. Any provisions for this in the game.

Wow, that went a little longer then intended. Let me hear your thoughts.

[Spooks782]

If your skills are 100% there will always be a chance that you will mess up.

I dont kno if they are going to be able to make the weather affect plants.

Will there be weeds?

[Teila]

Having grown up on a farm I will put in my 2 cents.

Thanks, Cmudd. I am not sure if farming will be as complex as in real life, but it will be fun. We are limited to some degree by the amount of programming we are willing to do for one aspect of the game. But we can always add more complexity later on if need be and if we are successful. :)

[cmudd02]

NP,

I think instead of worrying about the crops being stolen, people should worry about the crops being destroyed. Either thru drought, too much rain, or being burned in times of war to spread famine.

Also should consider how much surplus the farms will be producing to support the various nations. More productive farms, mean less people farming and doing other useful things. If npc's can be made to serve the majority of the serf like roles, it will give players more interesting things to do.

Cliff

[Deena]

NP,

I think instead of worrying about the crops being stolen, people should worry about the crops being destroyed. Either thru drought, too much rain, or being burned in times of war to spread famine.

Also should consider how much surplus the farms will be producing to support the various nations. More productive farms, mean less people farming and doing other useful things. If npc's can be made to serve the majority of the serf like roles, it will give players more interesting things to do.

Cliff


I too am hopeing for weather to be part of farming AND that farming skill be a part of the yeild in a crop AND would like to see a maintainance (what cmudd02 called weeding) be apart of the work needed to help crop yeilds. Simple coding can be added to vary the crop yeild easily by counting the days it rains in the field and how often and how long a farmer and NPCs work on the field while the crop is growing. This is all a database collection and a few lines of code.

I like the idea of stock feeding on the leftover crop .... I had forgotten that from my family stories about farming.

[Organic_Gaming]

Ever since playing Harvest Moon, a farming sim obviously, I have been waiting for a MMORPG to add farming into the game. A farming sim doesn't sound very exciting/fun but it's actually very fun and addictive, although I'm guessing a good number of the people posting in this thread already know it'll be fun :).

I'd like to see crops effect the soil properties, thus making crop rotation needed for high quality crops. Considering domestic animals are going to be included, it would also be good if we could use animal dung to fertilize the crops. Weather would probably be the hardest thing to program to effect crop growth, but I'd love to see that happen as well.

This game looks like it will have almost everything I've wanted in a game for a long time :D, I can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Teila]

I love Harvest Moon too!

I doubt crop rotation will be necessary. This would add a lot more for the server to keep track of than is necessary in a game where farming is not the focus. But your skill as a farmer will affect the quality of your produce as well as the quantity of the harvest. Also, not all crops can be grown in all locations so you will have to learn a bit about the area before you go out and buy seeds for the fist time. :) Animal dung most likely will not be available in the game..for obvious reasons.

Also, this is a small subtropical island. The weather is relatively constant everywhere except for elevation changes. So while there will be some weather affects, don't expect drastic seasonal changes. Droughts will hopefully be part of the game and they MAY affect crop quantity..but they may not. It all depends on how difficult it is to code or add to the game.

Again, remember..just as combat is not the focus of this game, neither is farming. We need to include a wide variety of skills without taking 10 years to finish the game. :)

Compared to other MMORPGs, I think you will be happy. However, remember...Harvest Moon's focus IS farming and we won't be anywhere near as detailed as that game.

Welcome!

[Surric]

[QUOTE=Teila] Animal dung most likely will not be available in the game..for obvious reasons.

QUOTE]

*Strikes out 'dungbeetle as national symbol for Sakoian Empire'*

[Brynne]

I wonder, will there be a harvest festival? =)

Each culture celebrates its own festivals. I'm sure that most will have some sort of harvest celebration. Such holidays were a big deal in medieval times, so it makes sense they would occur in medieval Adellion.

[Organic_Gaming]

I love Harvest Moon too!

I doubt crop rotation will be necessary. This would add a lot more for the server to keep track of than is necessary in a game where farming is not the focus. But your skill as a farmer will affect the quality of your produce as well as the quantity of the harvest. Also, not all crops can be grown in all locations so you will have to learn a bit about the area before you go out and buy seeds for the fist time. :) Animal dung most likely will not be available in the game..for obvious reasons.

Also, this is a small subtropical island. The weather is relatively constant everywhere except for elevation changes. So while there will be some weather affects, don't expect drastic seasonal changes. Droughts will hopefully be part of the game and they MAY affect crop quantity..but they may not. It all depends on how difficult it is to code or add to the game.

Again, remember..just as combat is not the focus of this game, neither is farming. We need to include a wide variety of skills without taking 10 years to finish the game. :)

Compared to other MMORPGs, I think you will be happy. However, remember...Harvest Moon's focus IS farming and we won't be anywhere near as detailed as that game.

Welcome!


Very true, too much focus on one thing just takes time away from the others, sadly. No problem though, once the game makes launch, there's room for expansions to add to each aspect of the game... either way I always have my own game to fall back on, whenever that get's made...

[Teila]

Very true.

Remember something else..in order to have a dynamic world, the farmers need folks with other skills. A game like Harvest Moon works because you sell your produce and milk to imaginary buyers...not another player. If you want a MMORPG to work with farmers, you will need to supply the people who buy the food and those people will need to have jobs and skills. And then the farmers will need to buy the tools necessary to farm from those craftsmen. The craftsmen will need a way to get the raw resources to create the implements, rope, building materials, etc. While it would be possible to build a world with more complete farming tools, it would be difficult to create a MMORPG like Harvest Moon without losing a great deal of depth in the game.

A simple farming game would be possible, of course. You simply make one like HM but have it multi-player. But to really create a dynamic world, you need to be very diverse. With diversity comes limitations. Not only time, but money and servers too. Somewhere on these boards, Caf mentioned how much it would cost to run a single server. Adellion will be very server heavy already. If each individual skill was extremely complex, the servers necessary would create two almost impossible requirements: You would need hundreds of thousands of players...more than 500,000 probably since that is what games like SWG strive for and they are not as complex as you seem to desire. Even the huge games have trouble meeting this subscription level and maintaining it. Or you would have to charge much more than the going rate for your subscription fees..probably dropping the number of subscriptions you will get.

Of course, 10 years in the future, this might be possible. At that time, servers might cost less to run, they might hold more data, the programming might be more efficient, etc. Of course, folks will want even more complex games then so there will probably always be a lag in what they expect and what they can get. So don't give up on your idea, just realize that there are always limitations.

[Suva-Tovari Nalor]

<tosses a few dungbeetles at Surric>

[Organic_Gaming]

A simple farming game would be possible, of course. You simply make one like HM but have it multi-player. But to really create a dynamic world, you need to be very diverse. With diversity comes limitations. Not only time, but money and servers too. Somewhere on these boards, Caf mentioned how much it would cost to run a single server. Adellion will be very server heavy already. If each individual skill was extremely complex, the servers necessary would create two almost impossible requirements: You would need hundreds of thousands of players...more than 500,000 probably since that is what games like SWG strive for and they are not as complex as you seem to desire. Even the huge games have trouble meeting this subscription level and maintaining it. Or you would have to charge much more than the going rate for your subscription fees..probably dropping the number of subscriptions you will get.

Of course, 10 years in the future, this might be possible. At that time, servers might cost less to run, they might hold more data, the programming might be more efficient, etc. Of course, folks will want even more complex games then so there will probably always be a lag in what they expect and what they can get. So don't give up on your idea, just realize that there are always limitations.

Yeah, I can't help myself, I always want things to be more complex than is reasonable lol. That's one reason my own projects are so slow at progressing, I've just recently forced myself to make something simple...usually I complicate things until they break, then have to start over again (been doing that for years) :(.

I don't expect my dream game to be made, by me, for a number of years. My college schedules keep seeming to get shortened for one reason or another, and I still have a lot to learn that I wish my high school would have been able to teach (small town = low budget sadly). So I might not have a huge problem getting things how I want by then, but like you said, as capabilities increase so does the demand that they exceed that capability.

[usa9990]

I dunno where to go to start playin!plz someoen tell me!

[Teila]

Please read the FAQs and the stickies. The game is in development.

[vint]

Just wondering Teila, have you ever thought any of these are joke accounts?

[DeadZone]

Got a good point there, you would think there would be more people with curiosity and woujld read somewhat, instead of just quickly posting "How do I join?"

[Teila]

No, I think most of these people are kids who don't want to read first. I doubt many of them are joke accounts, although some may be. Many of the folks who post this way end up as long time fans. ;)

[vint]

I have done the same thing once...(not here)

[Jorourke92]

yeah,i'm gonna be a long time fan. this seems a good game and i like farming. ahh... laying in bed, posing in a forum on a pda